This week in the magazine, Sasha Frere-Jones writes about Lady Gaga and Beyoncé. On Wednesday, Frere-Jones answered readers’ questions in a live chat. A transcript of the discussion appears below.
QUESTION FROM JON GARFUNKEL: Why was Adele not worth any more attention in the article than the throwaway line about her selling to “middle-aged moms who don’t know how to pirate music”?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: She is worth many words, but covering three artists in 1500 words is a bit tough. As for a throwaway line, it’s hard to throw away: you only sell the big, steady numbers that Adele, Lady Antebellum and Eminem sell by reaching the casual consumers, who don’t frantically scour mediafire for links: people who still go to shops. And as a middle-aged dad, “middle-aged mom” is not a term of derision. (Knowing how to pirate music is universal and also kind of dorky.)
QUESTION FROM SAM K : Do you think young gays should feel exploited as the target of Gaga’s hyper-commercialized message?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That’s a very tricky question. Can you gauge someone’s sincerity—or even toxic attitudes, like misogyny or racism? Probably not, but we can probably sort out and understand people’s actions. There’s no need to determine if Gaga is being cynical in her relationship to the gay audience. It certainly feels entirely genuine at the live shows but in the end it doesn’t matter—she’s made a stand and sticking to it, which is what will influence people (if they are able to be influenced by Gaga at all).
QUESTION FROM DAVID SALTER: In his recent defense of Joan Crawford, David Denby wrote that Crawford “entered into a relationship with her public (no female star does this anymore) that depended on will and fantasy and a-woman-alone bravery.” I believe there is in fact a female star doing precisely this at present: Lady Gaga. What might this commonality with Crawford mean for the endurance of Lady Gaga’s public favor, and for her legacy?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That’s an excellent parallel, though I don’t feel qualified to speak about Crawford at length. It is true that Stefani Germanotta has built a career playing a character named Lady Gaga. That will allow her all sorts of freedom and as many set and mood and style changes as she can pull off. Will it limit what she can do? Ask David Bowie. We bought Ziggy Stardust, The Thin White Duke and several different Bowies (some American, some British). Will a woman in 2011 get all the mulligans Bowie got? I’d guess she gets a lot of chances but not as many as Bowie got.
QUESTION FROM KATERINA ARMSTRONG : WHITHER GRACE JONES!?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That could apply to anyone here—does anyone have that kind of room-filling stage presence? None of the people we are discussing, which is fine. You only get one or two Grace Joneses in a lifetime.
QUESTION FROM WILLIAM B. : The article seemed somewhat skeptical regarding Ms. Germanotta’s enduring cultural or musical endurance. As a performance artist she strikes me as fairly savvy and keen, much more so than Ms. Knowles, for instance. Isn’t her performance at least as important as her music? Do you have a sense that it will have an enduring impact, or will it be mostly ephemeral?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: A lot of people have been asking about endurance, which is a dangerous kind of forecasting but I’ll take a stab.
Nobody involved seems to have any chemical dependencies or self-destructive tendencies. There are fans for all of these artists across the demographic spectrum. Adele and Beyoncé don’t have any major investment in changing their personalities. We are buying, more or less, who they purport to be. Gaga has to come up with more variations. So she may be equally talented, but she’s given herself the tougher assignment. And her fanbase is younger and much more likely to move on, simply because kids do that.
QUESTION FROM B FINGER : Ms. Frere-Jones, I can see your halo. Were you born that way?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Yes, though I guess I didn’t state the “dad” part clearly enough.
QUESTION FROM LADY OGAGA : Do you think Gaga (and Gaga’s fans) overplay the authenticity card (i write, i sing, i play piano (omg!)… and do you think that really makes a difference in how we evaluate her music?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: For what she does, probably, except it will make a huge difference when she starts doing slower numbers. Dexter Gordon said that ballads show how well someone can really play. Nothing to hide behind. When Gaga does “Poker Face” it becomes this long, rambling monologue combined with a cabaret schtick and it’s a hoot. When she decides to do anything else like that, and not just a variation on stage, that voice will come in handy.
QUESTION FROM N. JUDAH: Gaga seems to be hewing a lot of territory already mapped out by Madonna, as you point out, but there is a significant way in which she diverges: at least at the outset, Mads played a series of virgin/whore roles that were already cultural icons, for better or worse. Gaga seems to be doing something extremely different in her choice of “roles” and outfits. What do you believe she is playing at there? Is she creating new forms for womanhood or simply reflecting an expanded cultural landscape?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Gaga certainly isn’t interested in playing out some of the more traditionally feminine roles that Madonna worked with first. No need to toy around with virginity questions or ask Papa’s permission. But then Gaga’s had the advantage of thirty years of Madonna’s groundwork, so of course she can start from a more aggressive position.
QUESTION FROM CYNTHIA WAITES : What are their faith relationships? Heard Lady Gaga quote, “I am teaching people to worship themselves.” Adele? Beyonce’?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Gaga references both Judas and Jesus, positively, on the album, which covers a chunk of the Bible pretty neatly. And, as you point out, the consumer. Beyoncé has talked, outside of recordings, about going to church. Adele—your guess is as good as mine. Certainly not central to the songs.
QUESTION FROM JOCELYN : How is Gaga going to age out though? At what point does she become the Cher of her generation?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Nice to se Cher’s name come up.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: If she can scale back from cyberhumanoid art attack, she can maybe become a Cher—highly stylized but certainly a person underneath the plumage. And she’s got the voice to do it. But she’s a way off from making that move, I’d guess.
QUESTION FROM KATERINA ARMSTRONG : do you think beyonce would have a harder time being “edgy” or “counter-culture” or “subversive” in the way lady gaga is (however mass-manufacturedly) because she is black?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That’s also a question of gender. Tyler the Creator can apparently say anything he wants and still rack up reasonably good sales and lots of critical approval. Could the next Beyoncé come out of the gate like that? Now, that’s slightly skewed, since they’re not doing the same things. (Odd footnote: song on new album, “4,” co-written by Odd Future member Frank Ocean.) I think we are waiting to see if a black woman could enter the marketplace, politics be damned, and make it work. Chances are it is not as certain a bet as being the intensely charming good girl.
QUESTION FROM LADY OGAGA : Is Adele this year’s Norah Jones (ubiquitous dinner party album, followed by swift fall to more manageable level of fame) or do you see her as capable of continuing to connect with (what’s left of) the mainstream on a consistent basis?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That’s the most obvious parallel—an immense vocal talent who seems, at first, to not be pushing it as far as it can go. The upside is these women—Norah included—are all so young that they have many years to make up their minds. I just saw Jones a few weeks ago at a Dylan tribute in New York at Bowery Ballroom, and she absolutely killed it. She’s not on the radar the way she was once, or the way Adele is now, but it felt like someone making a wise career choice: sock away the money and then do what you want, charts be damned.
QUESTION FROM VERTIGO SHTICK: Since you have heard “4” and we have not, how much does the highbrow Fela Kuti influence factor into the final product? Beyonce has never really been terribly daring: her giant leaps are usually padded with lots of small steps (see edgy “Run the World (Girls)” followed by snoozy but familiar “Best I Never Had”) that sell albums but prevent her from truly breaking barriers, as I believe she has the capacity. Is this true on “4?”
SASHA FRERE-JONES: She balances the intense numbers—”Apple Pie a La Mode,” “Irreplaceable,” “Countdown,” “Get Me Bodied”—with the anodyne ones. It’s usually a toss-up. The song here that makes me think she can find a real lane with this righteous anger style she has done repeatedly is “I Care”; it’s not so rambunctious that it will scare off the older listeners but it’s genuinely intense. But will songs like “1 + 1” keep her relevant? No.
QUESTION FROM KATERINA ARMSTRONG : does kreayshawn have the potential of these ladies? or will she be a flash in the pan? or is her zenith rap-exclusive, like missy elliot or da brat, and will never go totally mass/mainstream? thx.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: If anyone remembers how to spell Kreayshawn in December, I will send them a box of Junior Mints.
QUESTION FROM OLIVE : how about the boys? anyone live up to these women on the male front?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: That was a question going into this column. My editor and I looked back over the year, and the charts, and it seemed like nobody was even in the same blast radius. (Bruno Mars sells like mad, and will be writing hits for years, but I don’t see the same intense investment.)
SASHA FRERE-JONES: The immediate exception is a not very new artist—Eminem, who has had more staying power than anybody (including Marshall Mathers) expected.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: And Kanye, as reader Nick points out. Simply isn’t his chart moment, right now. But a new Kanye would change this field quickly.
QUESTION FROM JOCELYN : Are we allowed to speak of…Florence? She of the dulcet tones?? (did I spell dulcet correctly?) is she the new Annie Lenox? I miss Annie.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: We sure can. Having seen the flowy, post-Stevie dress, and the voice, live, there is not doubt she is a monster singer. But that’s not the same as having a formed vision of songs and recordings and the three women we’re discussing all have a very good sense of how to situate themselves in a song, and which songs those should be.
QUESTION FROM SPERIOD : What are your feelings on Beyonce as an actress? Has she reached her potential, or is the Beyst yet to come?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: I never understood why she smiled so much in “Austin Powers.” Though she was fine as Etta James. Some chewed-up scenery. She’s no Frank Sinatra, and that’s fine.
QUESTION FROM NYER : What the hell happened to Radiohead? And that awful Lotus Flower music video? Urgent questions.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Off-topic, but if we’re talking about controlling the conversation, this is the first time Radiohead didn’t control much. People downloaded the album, saw Thom do his dance and moved on. By their metrics, a standstill. Or a failure.
QUESTION FROM N. JUDAH : As you say, the gender politics of Beyonce’s album are somewhat contradictory. Does Gaga actually present a coherent politics of gender in her music itself? And do you believe the contrast you make is affected at all by the fact of Beyonce’s marriage to a massively famous man?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: This is an interesting point about Beyoncé, in that she’s a public figure in a public couple. They don’t hide much. They go out and there hasn’t been much rumor in a few years. But her main persona move is the “wronged woman.” It started on “Bday” amidst some rumors around Rihanna and Jay-Z, but that story died down. The persona hasn’t, though (see “Best Thing I Never Had”). She may not do transgression but she certainly does pissed off.
QUESTION FROM L. WEBER : It’s very obvious how far the leak of Beyoncé’s album has spread since it happened. She has expressed her feelings about it—obviously she’s pissed. Do you think this will have a big impact on sales and the success of ‘4’?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: I don’t understand why labels don’t simply push up the digital sales date after a leak. The art’s done, if not the whole booklet, but enough to get up into itunes. She’ll do fine, but in five years, I am guessing most acts will go straight to itunes the day the album is mastered.
QUESTION FROM MARCO : Along with these homages to the 80s, now we’ve got Bon Iver channeling Bruce Hornsby on his new record.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: it has been widely pointed out, but perhaps needs saying again, the 80s revival has lasted much longer than the 80s.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Oddest quote on any of these album is at the beginning of “I Was Here,” on “4”: an almost direct paraphrase of the main theme from “Social Network” by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. And then it’s gone.
QUESTION FROM NYER : It seems like Beyonce and Gaga are very invested in “activity” on stage—a lot of vigorous dancing, namely. Adele likes to sit pretty, and thusly seems to suggest that it’s possible to sustain a performance on voice alone. How true is that, though?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: There’s a huge difference there.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: In concert, Beyoncé is still a pretty active dancer. It’s just not part of Gaga’s plan, and hasn’t ever been. Which will save her from the Britney vs. Britney comparisons.
QUESTION FROM JOHN D : What would be the best choice for Gaga’s next single? A lot of the tracks don’t seem to have a lot of mainstream appeal
SASHA FRERE-JONES: “Fashion Of His Love.” Does justice to Nu Shooz and would be her lightest, least-burdened single to date.
QUESTION FROM LAGONK : Jean Michel Jarre created Lady Gaga
SASHA FRERE-JONES: Just like that idea. (But it’s Jean-Michel. Sensitive about hyphens around here.)
QUESTION FROM GUEST : Anna Wintour called Gaga a “childish diva” last year, and Lady Gaga and her music have unmistakable hints of childishness; is this what is perceived as so brave and artsy about her work?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: I haven’t seen many kids act like Gaga—this seems like the kind of “Voice From The Mountain” thing Anna can say, and feels plausible but doesn’t hold up. Maybe kids put slices of ham on their heads, but that’s about it.
QUESTION FROM GUEST : while reading about gaga almost everyone seem to agree on the fact that her music play second fiddle to her message, do you agree? isn’t she merely the poster child of the current zeitgeist?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: I keep waiting for a Palin-style response in pop, the rabidly right wing pop star who co-opts all the edgy bits and bobs and somehow steals the light away.
QUESTION FROM STEVEN A. : Can you touch on the immediacy of pop music right now? Beyonce took a “break” and is now floundering, Rihanna puts an album out every year like clockwork, singles are promoted as events (Katy Perry’s ET, Gaga Born This Way).. What lasting impact do you think this will have on our relationship with (and business of) popular music?
SASHA FRERE-JONES: There you go—two more women who are controlling the charts now. The business of popular music will probably be split between tours involving whipped cream cannons and green vomit (KP, LG) and the coming world of no objects: the cloud that holds every song you own. Very big rooms and invisible spaces—a very William Gibson showdown.
QUESTION FROM ALEXEI : Doesn’t a lot of pop music out there now seem to be converging to a homogenous electropop sound? (eg Beyonce ‘Run the World’, Gaga’s album, Britney’s album) Just wondering when Apple will put out an app to make hit singles with a beat under a computerized Steve Jobs voice reading mindless jumbles of words.
SASHA FRERE-JONES: A “Steve Jobs Reads Your Mail Out Loud” app seems like a gimme.
OK—thanks for all the questions. Look forward to the next one.
Illustration by André Carrilho.
